School System Allows Group To Promote 'Gay Conversion' To Students »
Posted by: david_nwpa 1 year ago220 Comments Report this Story
The School board in Arlington County, Virginia has agreed to allow a so-called ex-gay group to distribute material to high school students claiming homosexuality can be reversed. The school system's decision settles a lawsuit by the group Parents and Friends of Ex-Gays, or PFOX.
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david_nwpa1 year ago
This is both a challenge for all GLBT activists and a strange victory for supporters of the First Amendment. I do not like the message that PFOX puts forward and its claims that they can cure "gays" implies that being gay is akin to being sick. However, they have the right to express their message under the First Amendment.
I am concerned that the school district is not taking a stand on this issue and allowing kids to be influenced by this one group and not by other groups like PFLAG.
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dandt16121 year ago
I agree with you, It makes me worried about the teens who will become confused by the information they get from PFOX and may do harm to themselves or turn on others to seek approval.
Congrats on your 200th story!!! Keep them coming.
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DebraJMSmith1 year ago
How funny. You are "worried" about teens becoming confused by info they get from PFOX. What a riot!
It is amazing that people get so bothered at the thought of others stopping being homosexual. Why? We hear people who are homosexual say that they would not CHOOSE to be homosexual. So why is it not a good thing when someone realizes they are not?
I actually know people from PFOX and have been on conference calls with them. They are lovely people who are working hard for those who WANT their help. You see, no one is forcing anyone to get their help. But people are sure trying to STOP those who want it from getting it.
Can we say, "hypocrites"?
We are watching for PFOX to win in Montgomery MD next.
Debra...
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StarLord1 year ago
There is a difference between realising that one is not a homosexual, which is good if it is the truth about a person, and being brainwashed into believeing that one is not a homosexual. It's kinda like the difference between truth and lies....
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lvrofwolves1 year ago
I agree Starlord, if a person is confused about their sexuality, it is a good thing to realize what is and accept it within yourself and live your life accordingly.
If you don't lie to yourself, many conflicts you may feel within will disapear...then you just have to deal with some of the outside conflicts that others impose on others. Really they should stop that crap, I think it's very unhealthy and they are providing a big disservice to others in the guise of caring.
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DebraJMSmith1 year ago
I obviously feel differently than you do about people believing they are homosexual, Star.
However, just going off of what you said here, one would ask the questions:
1) Who is anyone who believes it is a person's right to say he was born homosexual, to say it is not a person's right to say he was not?
2) And, who is anyone who does not want to be judged for his 'sexual lifestyle' to judge another person for it?
You see, I don't care if I am judged for being a heterosexual. So, I can judge in this situation.
You may say, "Yes, Debra, but that is because you are heterosexual and no one judges that, unless the person had said he was homosexual at some point." To that I ask, "What does that tell you?"
Debra...
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DebraJMSmith1 year ago
God does not even force people to live by HIS true, though one day everyone will have to face that truth just as a person who tries to defy gravity learns. (Some things are simply inevitable.) The mission of PFOX is not to force anyone, it is simply wanting to get the word out to those who want to change that there is help out there for them.
Debra...
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DebraJMSmith1 year ago
A young person can have odd thoughts of doing many things that are wrong, that does not mean that child should be encouraged to go with those thoughts.
What if the child is having thoughts of robbing banks? Shall we teach him the 'safe' way to do it. I mean, many people feel it is their 'find' and their 'right' to rob banks. And how about rape? There are men out there who feel that a young girl who dresses in anything less than a potato sack is "looking for it." Shall we teach boys how to rape too? You do realize there are cultures who believe you can rape a girl. You do realize this. Right?
We are to teach children to come out of the things they would do wrong, not encourage them to 'explore' it.
Debra...
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scott42611 year ago
There is nothing wrong with being gay. It is as normal as left-handedness. And like left-handedness, one's sexuality is not chosen by the individual.
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hamy1 year ago
There's the rub! You think that homosexuality is wrong.
"A young person can have odd thoughts of doing many things that are wrong, that does not mean that child should be encouraged to go with those thoughts."
See? That is your problem. Instead of coming at it from the point of WRONG, you need to come at it from explaination. You see darling, telling someone that something exists isn't for it or against it. It is just information. And information doesn't hurt intelligent people.
You on the other hand...
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StarLord1 year ago
Your God may not force people to live by His truth. His actions are not at issue here. Those who call themselves his disciples show no such restraint, and it is their destructive behaviour that I have issue with.
Also, on a not-completely-unrelated side note, please show me one instance where Jesus exhorts us to condemn one another.
"I bring you but one Commandment: To love your God as you love your neighbour, and to love your neighbour as you love yourself" - Jesus Christ.
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acdnc1 year ago
Bottom line: it is part of the genetic make-up.
Unless you are prepared to persecute those who have blue eyes or kinky hair, lay off the gays. They are just living their lives.
Many of us are indebted to gay people for dedicating their lives to their communities.
Leave Jesus etc out of it. This is a free country and anyone can do what they like in their beds as long as it is consesnual and basically non life threatening.
The idea of supporting conversion is ludicrous. There is no evid whatsoever to support it.
Peace.
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hamy1 year ago
Um. Why do you feel the need to judge anyone? Is it some hole in your soul? Daddy didn't love you when you were a kid? Or just because you are a cold hearted person with nothing to live for who derives personal satisfaction from pushing others down?
I believe it's the latter.
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tkyrchncs1 year ago
Sweetie, it is neither a good thing or a bad thing to realize that you are straight, queer, or bi. It is just what is, that's all. It is the judgemental nature of others, especially one's parents, that creates a conflict. If you do not want to go to bed with certain types of people, then don't, but don't lie to all of us and say that you have changed whom you are attracted to by your own choice. And do not go into the schools where there are impressionable and frightened young souls and lie to them, either.
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DebraJMSmith1 year ago
If it is that simple, "Sweetie", then why do people feel the need to push it on school children? Why do people need to have lude parades for the public to witness what they do? Why do they want special rights? Why do they seek to change meanings of words? Why do they want to take away the meaning of marriage and the rights of the true married couples? Why do they seek to shut anyone up who speaks against sex outside of a biblical marriage?
Seriousy... If it is THAT simple....
Debra...
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david_nwpa1 year ago
No one wants to deprive you of your "biblical marriage." I assume you smashed the wedding cup under your feet when the Rabbi told you "Mazeltov." I digress. Gays and lesbians want equal treatment under the law. We respect families in all forms and want to build upon the foundations of marriage by having our unions accepted by the state. The State calls them marriages, and hence, we want to be free to marry the individual partner of our choosing. A civil marriage is far different from a religious one, in that no church necessarily need bless or accept a civil wedding.
Also, we do not feel the need to pressure children any more than PFOX wants to confuse children into thinking they can change their sexual identity, when not one scientific body nor psychological entity says that it is even possible. In other words, we want children to know that if they are gay, they should not have to lie to protect their identity.
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DebraJMSmith1 year ago
That is what I mean, you want to change the meaning to the word, "marriage". Marriage is between a man and a woman. If you insist you are a 5 year old, should we let you go to Kindergarten? (You do realize there are adults who want to be children.) What you are wanting is to change the meaning to a word to fit what you wish you could be, which you are not. An adult is not 5 years old and a homosexual 'couple' is not a 'husband and wife'.
If you are so proud of what you are, then why do you seek to be that which you are not?
Kids can have odd thoughts go through their minds. Often kids explore those thoughts. Most of the time nothing comes from any of it. But, put adults in a public school telling kids in so many words to explore those thoughts and that is what many of them will do.
Debra...
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tkyrchncs1 year ago
Lady you need to get a dictionary. The oldest one available to me right now is Webster 1977 and it lists "a union between a man and a woman" and "a similar union between members of the same sex" as well as "the admixture of two metals in the manufacture of alloys".
The delusion that you are five is an illness. The desire for equal rights under the law is merely demanding what our constitution already mandates. In queer unions the members in my experience usually call eachother partners. Some use husbands or wives, or spouses. Or all the above. We are attempting to end the government oppression that stops us from being what we want to be: citizens treated equally under the law.
Kids should be encouraged to explore. They will do it anyway, why make them feel guilty or weird about it?
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tkyrchncs1 year ago
I should say here that I favor same-sex marriage only because it comes closer to equality for all than what we have now. IMHO the government should back out of all marriages and recognize none. Individual citizens, equally recognized, who are grown up enough to handle their own relationships without any government interest or involvement at all.
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tkyrchncs1 year ago
Oh, and if you think all that lovely near-naked dancing in the streets violates your sense of modesty, the word you want is "lewd". And stay away from Mardi Gras and Sturgis and every beach resort during spring break, unless the same sort of behavior by straight people is ok with you.
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DebraJMSmith1 year ago
Well, that would explain why I could not find that word in my spell check.
As for your dictionary saying that marriage can be between two people of the same sex, that does not shock me. Do you really believe that Webster thought that?
And there is nothing 'lovely' about men dancing near naked in the streets, behaving disgustingly.
I know a man who body-guarded for a well known Christian activist. My friend, the body-guard saw things at the 'gay' games that simply should NEVER take place in public.
As for equal rights; there is nothing equal about two men doing that which they do not have the correct body parts for and a man with a woman.
It is your choice to be a homosexual, so stop going after that which is not yours to have and stop pushing it on those who do not want any part of it (and the children).
Debra...
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tkyrchncs1 year ago
Language evolves. Can you read Old English or even Middle English? Dictionaries reflect usage, not the other way around.
As for what is lovely, this word is akin to "beautiful" in meaning and we all know where beauty lies.
I have never been to the gay games, but I have been to highschool, college, and pro sports events, and seen things at all of them that probably even the two of us would agree should not go on in public. So I'll take your word on this.
Keep your opinions to yourself as to what my body parts are for.
If you believe that you chose to be heterosexual, then I wll say nothing further to you about choice, as it would be pointless.
Though there are many things wrong with me, the fact that I am primarily attracted to men is NOT one of them, and I will not permit discrimination on that basis.
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hamy1 year ago
I live here in Chicago and the Gay Games were wonderful. The closing ceremony was one of the most touching and lovely services I have seen in a long time. And Debra, just to let you know, there were straight people in the Gay Games. See? We don't discriminate.
So don't go pointing fingers at something which you OBVIOUSLY know nothing about.
I spoke to those protesters at Gay Games for 45 minutes. They were protesting a concert by the Chicago Symphony in the park. Does that seem Christian? "Don't listen to the Symphony! It will make you gay!"
Ridiculous. Just like you, honey.
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DebraJMSmith1 year ago
fkyrohnos,
It is one thing for the spelling and pronunciation of a word to change throughout the years, it is quite another for the meaning of a word to change. And THAT is what homosexuals have done to suit what they want. But even when a word acquires another meaning, the meaning that was originally meant in context, remains the same.
If you look up "marriage" at dictionary [.com] you will see: a formal agreement between two companies or enterprises to combine operations, resources, etc., for mutual benefit; merger.
I promise you that if you want the government to see two companies as "married, filing jointly" on a tax form, it is NOT going to happen.
And if you see things of 'lewd' (I can be taught) behavior and don't report it, shame on you.
As for you clearly NOT liking that I thought you were a homosexual -- ha! If it was so "Okay to be 'gay'", why did you capitalize the word "NOT"? -- I rest my case...
Debra...
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tkyrchncs1 year ago
Actual meaning in context changes. If I had said 100 years ago, "Debra is quite liberal", everyone including you would have understood me to mean that you were generous of spirit and pocketbook, and you probably would have said thank you. I don't think the same sentence would elicit the same response today. A similar case would be if I said "Debra is a gay person". Translations: 1940-cheerful, pleasant, happy 1970-homosexual 2005-wrong, defective.
When two companies merge, they DO file one set of taxes.
Perhaps you are correct about reporting lewd behavior, but I tend to be a more forthright person, and if I thought it dangerous to others, would have spoken to the offenders in person. Merely grossing me out is not enough reason to report anyone, as my reactions are my own, and not to be blamed on others.
I am queer and have been out for 35 yrs. And though I have many faults, that is NOT one of them.
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hamy1 year ago
If you don't want any part of it, why are you here discussing it? I don't go onto straight person threads and talk about it? I don't care about straight people. I love my friends, but what they do in their bedrooms really doesn't cross my mind.
You should really look at why this bothers you so much. It doesn't affect you in the slightest and yet you are angry about it.
We hate in others that which we see in ourselves.
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hamy1 year ago
No. Your narrowminded vision of marriage is between a man and a woman. I have stood up at a few straight marriages and a few gay marriages. They are the same. The families cry. The bride and groom or groom and groom or bride and bride get drunk and have a great time. Everyone eats some cake.
Really, your argument is ridiculous. Why are you so against it? Tell me how it affects you? Personally.
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hamy1 year ago
Listen. It's because of closed-minded nincompoops like you who need to put their nose in everyone else's business that we need to have parades. We don't PUSH homosexuality on anyone. But letting a frightened teen who is feeling alienated and isolated know that there are others out there who feel the same way is not pushing. It's called compassion.
Next, how does a gay person marrying the love of their life affect your marriage in any way shape or form? Positively or negatively. It doesn't. That's just you being a bigot.
And they aren't "special rights" as you so eloquently put it. They are the rights that every other American taxpayer enjoys. I deserve the same as you. And you saying that it's special doesn't make it so.
Straight people do all of the same things you mentioned. They have lewd parades. (mardis gras) They change meaning of words and push their agenda on kids just as much. (christian groups came to my school.
Grow up.
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Gungnir1 year ago
Deb - my advice, don't bother with this board, there will be no rational debate here. Dissention from the entrenched mindset of this message board will not be tolerated, this is netscape after all. You speak in logical terms, which won't be understood.
You will recieve some variation on these types of responses:
1) You are a bigot, or some other throwaway ad hominem attack.
2) Gays are gays for life, despite the existance of ex-gays. They were brainwashed. ALL of them.
3) Free speech means nothing unless it furthers the agenda of the OP. The victory won in court by PFOX in Arizona must be ignored.
4) If you say tell kids stuff they don't want to hear they will kill themselves. Unless it supports the agenda of the OP.
5) Pro-gay groups should be given equal rights to speak their side, even though they have.
6) Their message has no place in school curriculum, disregard the fact that it was vetted by trained experienced educators.
Watch the negs pile up to prove my point =/.
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smeejay1 year ago
the negative that you represent, dung, more than makes up for any we could add to your comments. because we have found a voice in our world, including this cyber world, is why you hear "variations on the same responses". last night i had dinner with my best friend, his lover and my best friend's elderly parents. it was their first meeting. the boyfriend's an anapolis graduate, lawyer, 3rd generation nantucket, 2.5 mil. home, blah, blah, blah. the usual story. of course they loved him. after dinner i commented on how thrilled i am to have been born in a year where the way a family dealt with a glbt child was institutionalization and electroshock therapy. and now i get to see a time where more people , than not, feel that it's more important THAT we love than WHO we love. if you're tired of hearing our typical responses, then stop making your ignorant accusations. or better yet do what you advised deb to do and simply go away.
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jordan111 year ago
This isn't about free speech. This is child abuse, just as homophobic ranting is child abuse. With the high suicide rate among teens who are homosexual, one would think that anything as volatile as this would have been met with a firm effort to protect the fragile ego's of teens. Passing that propaganda around also reinforces the bigotry of their peers. I'm appalled that adults are acting in such a despicable manner, with no apparent knowledge of the repercussions in their choice to do this. Every day I'm more assured that what I've suspected is true. This country has a problem with mass hysteria/mental illness on the subject of homosexuality. The group mind set is a dangerous thing, & all reason is lost to these people.
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david_nwpa1 year ago
I have to agree, upon reflection. School districts are supposed to educate young minds, not fill them with confusion and bigotry. These pamphlets and the people at PFOX serve only to inflame hatred and push kids away from what is for some, their true identity. Rather than live truthful lives accepting themselves as gay or lesbian, these people would prefer that kids live lies for a variety of reasons. Besides, what kid wants to be persecuted in high school?
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peaquod1 year ago
Maybe I missed something in the article, but if one group has a court ordered or sanctioned agreement to distribute propoganda fliers...doesn't it then follow....so does PFLAG or other groups...that is what the 1st Amendment is all about... Freedom of expression is all about balance!
The ex-gay crowd is indeed all about child abuse...but so is NAMBLA..albeit from differing positions....It then behooves PFLAG or Lambda Legal or other organizations to make sure that our queer brothers and sisters get the LGBT message of hope and inclusion...
My guess is the response to PFOX will be small, yet, the loss of one teenager to suicide or worse, a life of lies and deception..is not acceptable.
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peaquod1 year ago
And, indeed, that may be necessary...
We can't let them dominate the debate...we have to get in there and take the debate back from them...
Crying about it is not going to stop it...the only recourse we have to fight against it....
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kedirian1 year ago
And escalation being in the wind, they will probably wind up with their "programs" at kindergarten.....The only way to effeecyively fight them is highlight their FAILURES, which will eventually show!
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mossback1 year ago
But don't pro-homosexual groups want to target Middle-School and younger children with a pro-Gay message? The so-called Teacher's Unions and associations are actively promoting homosexual behavior as an acceptable alternative lifestyle -- that is "crap" in my opinion. Why aren't other groups allowed to promote the opposite message? It is about free speech. This is about the 1st Amendement. Why are you so ready to sue the school district for complying with the Constitution?
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jordan111 year ago
But don't pro-homosexual groups want to target Middle-School and younger children with a pro-Gay message? >>>>
Define specifically what you mean by a 'pro gay message.' If you mean there are educators that want to counter homophobic voices, you would be correct. Do you prefer that children grow up believing that homosexual people are evil, abominations, child molesters, going to hell, less than human? And do you prefer that school kids use this filth they've learned from grownups to taunt, and attack their peers? Is that what you view as appropriate?
No one is 'promoting homosexual behavior." (What exactly IS homosexual behavior, anyway?) People who are homosexual are whole human beings. Their sexuality is only one part of who they are, & it is NOT acceptable to persecute them. Kids need to learn that. It's called ETHICS.
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hamy1 year ago
Informing people that homosexuality exists is not promoting a gay "lifestyle" as you put it.
And, your opinion is crap in my opinion.
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Gungnir1 year ago
How exactly are some ex gays sharing their experiences in becoming straight bigotry? It's no different than those who are gay talking about the trials and tribulations of gay life in general. Supressing their right to free speech would be bigotry.
PFOX is claiming that homosexuality CAN be reversed, not that it SHOULD be reversed. They're giving students a choice, and those who are happy being homosexual can just ignore the pamphlets as it is clearly not an attack on them or their lifestyle as this article seems to suggest.
PFOX's reading material will cause some mental stress, but that argument could be applied to just about any PSA that is passed out in a school. I read an article about Hep C when I was a student and it scared the hell out of me, and I turned out ok. This group is ex-gay and proud but not anti gay, and they're not going anywhere. All of the anti-ex gay bigots in the world aren't going to change that.
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david_nwpa1 year ago
Ex gay is akin to saying ex-black. You cannot change your sexual identity any more than you can change the color of your skin. PFOX is making a bold claim that it can change a person's sexual identity. However, the APA has come out strongly against such therapy saying at best it can lead to confusion and at worst can lead to depression, anxiety, even suicidal thoughts. We cannot afford to have these foolish ideas spread through the schools.
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Gungnir1 year ago
I think the very existance of pfox disagrees with you david. These are ex-gay people, and despite your assertions they are happy, healthy and want to share their story with others. And excuse me if I disagree a bit with the APA, their position on homosexuality was that it was a mental disorder until 1974 and changed their position after virulent lobbying. They were wrong then and are wrong now.
I find it ironic that you rail against anti-gay prejudice, but spread your own anti-ex gay prejudice. To live in denial of the clear fact that members of this organization changed from being gay to being straight is unhealthy and I hope you can overcome that. Perhaps in accepting them as they are you can find the way to accepting yourself.
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david_nwpa1 year ago
I accept myself as a proud gay man. I hope some day those PFOX folks can accept themselves and their real sexual identities, not the masks they wear to save face with their so-called families. I do not accept the fact that they are "cured." Being gay is NOT an illness, contrary to the vile you are spewing.
Good day, sir and/or madam.
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Gungnir1 year ago
It does not matter what you think, or what I think about pfox, they have a right to say what they wish to say. They believe that they aren't gay anymore and have a right to express it. They aren't 'cured' as you put it, they've simply taken a different path through life. Oppressing a minority group's right to freedom of expression is Unamerican.
It's too bad you can't accept this as the free speech issue it is instead of a personal attack. I think you've enjoyed your freedom but and would deny it to others.
Not in America. And it's bile, not vile. I don't spew either though, thank you.
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lvrofwolves1 year ago
Free speech is a wonderful thing! So you think it would be ok for ANY group with their free speech rights to go into a school setting and exercise their free speech rights??? Is that ok with you? it's not ok with me. Not to our children, not in a school setting. If this was a college campus with young adults, that would be very different then middle school kids.
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Gungnir1 year ago
Your excessive use of punctuation and hyperbole is not warranted.
In most school boards, including the one that I work for, any group that wishes to make a presentation to students are vetted by the curriculum department to make sure that they are delivering something of value to the students and clearly that determination was made. They do a mock up of the presentation or deliver the pamphlets verbatim to either the board directly or to the principal of the school who makes the decision.
If the community in general had a problem with what is going to be said, they should bring it up to the PTA (if they are parents) or directly to the superintendant of curriculum.
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david_nwpa1 year ago
If you are so interested in protecting minority rights, then attend a PFLAG meeting and make a positive contribution. Support a gay cause for a change. Attend a pride rally. Write to your Congressman and tell them you support gay marriage, or if you cannot bring yourself to say that, perhaps civil unions. In any event, if you firmly want to help oppressed minorities, check out the gay community. I am sure you will be more than welcome.
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Gungnir1 year ago
Wow you have some preconceptions david. I do support gay marriage, as I believe that the government has no right to make a law but one that prevents a person from harming another or society in general. I also support free speech and encourage people to exercise it in ways that you might find offensive, as clearly the membership of netscape does. Considering the negative response I got here from everyone, including dozens of negs I think I wouldn't be welcome at a rally for gay rights. One of my comments got 4 negs and not a single response... rather pathetic. Even you engaged in several ad hominem attacks.
Dissenting viewpoints are not tolerated here, and it's to your detriment.
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StarLord1 year ago
The PFOX display cases aren't (probably) genuinely ex-gay. Most of them would fall into 1 of 2 categories:
1) Never really gay in the first place, simply confused and thought they were.
OR
2) Brainwashed and 'therapised' into believing that "The Lord has driven the demons out of me". Given that many forms of 'ex-gay' therapy are done using ECT and negative association treatment (putting the picture of a naked guy on the wall for them to look at, then inflicting pain on them so that they associate naked guys with pain), I would tend to doubt the validity of these 'therapies', AS DOES THE FOREMOST MEDICAL BODY IN YOUR COUNTRY.
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jordan111 year ago
And excuse me if I disagree a bit with the APA, their position on homosexuality was that it was a mental disorder until 1974 and changed their position after virulent lobbying.>>>>
They changed their position after studies which found that homosexual people are no more 'mentally ill' than the heterosexual population. They conducted research tests, conclusively showing this. So your nonsense that this was about 'lobbying' is again, nonsense.
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Gungnir1 year ago
That study was conducted after much lobbying. I guess you don't remember the gay liberation front's activities in the early 70s, including at an APA conference shouting down some of the foremost minds of the APA at the time such as Alfred Kinsey?
No, you don't remember because you never knew in the first place. Again, this is free speech being used to further a good cause, but then you advocate denying it others.
Nonsense indeed, you need a civics class.
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markoller9 months, 1 week ago
Hi Gungnir,
I just posted a new thread, "Pathophysiology of homosexuality," It is a necessary antidote to all the sentimental pablum about homosexuality which is constantly shoved down our throats. It was by a surgeon named James W. Holsinger, and the article was commissioned by the Methodist church. I wish there was a better source, but there is an unwritten law against disagreeing with the Disney version of homosexuality, and almost no one else is willing to violate the law. Click http://websrvr80il.audiovideoweb.com/il80web200...
Thanks,
Mark
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hamy1 year ago
I will use a similar argument that I have heard many times on a gay story. I don't hate the ex-gays. I hate their sins. Those sins involve destroying the lives of innocent women and children, causing mental anguish in the men whom they will inevitably cheat on their wives with, and the spread of STD's. That is the legacy of the ex-gay movement.
Remember Equinox? The FOUNDERS of that ex-gay group are now gay again and destroying the myth of "ex-gay." They have seen the light. Why can't you?
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hamy1 year ago
What they are saying is that it is so wrong that they have to quit it like smoking or drinking. It is brainwashing. And it is telling the kids who are gay that killing themselves is better than being gay.
Nice message of peace.
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tkyrchncs1 year ago
None of us is bigoted aganist these folks. We mostly feel sorry for them. But it is just like Patty Hurst or any other long-term hostage situation-the victim begins to sympathize with his oppressors and agree with their agendas. They are victims of cultural bias.
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Gungnir1 year ago
Do you not see the parellels here? Until 1974 if you were gay you got locked up in a mental institution. You're saying that these ex-gays are being held hostage by society. How paternal of you.
Gay speech was suppressed both overtly and covertly, but in the case of this courageous school board, they've decided not to oppress this group.
Regardless if you agree with it, they have a right to be heard. They also have a right to be refuted by their peers, so anti-anti ex gay groups (that's a bit convoluted) should also be given the time to debate them or pass out flyings. I'm glad this board did not take the cowardly way out and just ban them outright, sticking their heads in the sand while an important human rights issue goes ignored.
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tkyrchncs1 year ago
If you and I wish to discuss this in this forum, that's grand. A debate on TV? Prefect. In the public schools? NO. Teach the kids to read and do math. History, science, English, health and hygene, phys ed, art, music, shop skills, basic home economics, a foreign language or two. Teach them how to get along with their peers and their teachers. The things that every child regardless of individual differences needs to know. Leave your opinions at the door, please. Attendance is mandatory and the audience is captive. This is not a free public forum. It is a structrued environment intended to produce citizens with a fundamental general education. That's quite large enough an assignment for public education.
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tkyrchncs1 year ago
Coming from a large family of educators, I am familiar with this. Health and hygene are mentioned above, no? The list above was intended to be indicative, not exhaustive. The point was that schools have a very large job with the basic mission and there is not a lot of room for fol-de-rol. And no room at all for moral judgements on normal kids who have committed no crimes or interfered with the education of others.
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Gungnir1 year ago
I work in IT at my school board, and I've seen a lot of sites blocked via our proxy server that I thought were ok, but I was told to block them anyway. If parents have a legitimate concern, we respond.
If the parents of these students or the community at large feels that these pamphlets should not be available to students in their community, they need to contact the board directly. They haven't done that, and I don't believe this material contains 'moral judgements' or it should not have been approved in the first place. Is it not the height of arrogance to believe that we can make a decision about what a child should learn for a community? It's their community, and they've decided what their students can and can't learn in a classroom setting.
Free speech only works if you use it. If you are so concerned about it, get a pamphlet, read it and complain.
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tkyrchncs1 year ago
There is a level of general national concern; these children will not all rmain in Arlington and even the ones who do will vote in national elections. There is also a level of state concern, and I am a Virginian who helps subsidize this system.
I am sorry you have to be the censor, I wouldn't do it for on-line or library content. Kids should, by and large, be able to find information they go looking for. This is not the same as posting flyers where everyone who can see must see them. I still say the board is being cowardly about this and now you're telling me that they are also cowardly about research resources. Too bad for the kids.
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Gungnir1 year ago
Most of what we're asked to block is either porn sites, message boards or sites that are clearly not school related, like gaming sites. We don't say that students can't view the material, we say they can't use our computers to do it, so I'm not a true censor per se. Really it's to prevent our butts from getting sued.
In practice I think a mountain is being made of this molehill. Even if flyers are being posted, no one reads them. Pamphlets get an even worse treatment as the general student body is homophobic, and no one wants to be seen as being gay which would be inferred by reading such material.
Like most non-mainstream memes, PFOX will likely be ignored. Efficacy beside the point, I think the gay community shouldn't see alternatives to the gay lifestyle as an attack on their personal beliefs, as would be indicated by the minefield I have stepped into here. For better or worse, 'brainwashing' or not, there are ex gays and they need support. PFOX provides it, so why stop them?
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tkyrchncs1 year ago
We contend that there is no lifestyle and that there are no true ex-gays, Sir, as a short summing up of the opinions here. I was rough on the censorship bit, I know. There do need to be limits on what ed comp can be used for. But if there are going to be fliers offering help to gays or anyone else they need to come from legitimate liscensed health and mental health professionals, not from misguided, if well intentioned, groups who make spurious claims.
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Gungnir1 year ago
No offense taken, I don't relish that part of my job.
The reason why you contend that there are no ex-gays is because it's a point of contention. I know you truly believe there are no ex-gays, but it is not a universal point of view. Perhaps PFOX is a wrong, but go down to your school's guidance office and read some of the stuff there... it's full of both crackpottery and interesting information - it's up to the reader to decide which is which.
Your claim that they are not legitimate mental health professionals is a valid concern, but a lack of medical training is not grounds to disqualify a group from distributing pamphlets on school grounds, just as every library book is not thoroughly vetted as to it's source.
Using unsubstantiated original research and shaky references will get that pamphlet pulled, so I'd encourage you to get the pamphlet and read it, and make sure they're being factually accurate and most importantly to check their references.
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tkyrchncs1 year ago
Thanks for the advice. This is a touchy subject for me. I went through all this crap in the late 60's and early 70's. In high school I lived in terror that I would "give myself away" and I was a popular kid, an athlete, president of my senior class, and valedictorian, from a good family, respected by my peers and the faculty as a leader. If anyone found out I could lose everything, even my life. I saw the scorn and ridicule faced by effeminate boys and masculine girls, and knew that could be me, if anyone knew. I prayed fervently not to be gay, even though my feelings did not seem wrong to me (just to everyone else).
Every queer understands why the suicide rate for gay teens is the highest for any group of teens. These kids need more protection than other kids do, and since straight people mostly don't see this or care, it's up to our community to be outspoken and pro-active in defence of gay teens.
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hamy1 year ago
I have seen several documentary films about these groups. The men in them are broken and sad. I feel bad for the poor women who marry these ex-gay men and then find themselves being cheated on. Getting STD's. And eventually leaving their wives and going back to the gay community.
That is the sad reality of the ex-gay movement.
I don't disagree that it should exist for people who need it. I just think that both sides of that equation should be put forth to people. The problem I see is that kids don't know to look for both sides of an argument. They haven't been gay enough to look pensively at what their life will become. Telling them that their feelings are wrong before they fully understand them themselves is damaging.
Look at Ted Haggard. Christian man. Very anti-gay. And yet gay as the day is long. He will never change who he is attracted to. He will just keep hurting his family.
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mossback1 year ago
You are incorrect. It is about free speech. Telling someone the truth isn't child abuse. Child abuse is telling a child that it is ok to engage in behavior that will lead you to a life of misery. I realize that no one on this list wants to hear the message that PFOX is telling, but it is amazing how often after our church shows the video "It isn't really Gay" that someone will come to us and ask how they can quit being homosexual. Many homosexuals are trapped in a lifestyle that is a prison -- if they try to break free they are harrassed by gay activists and former companions and many go into hiding to escape the threats. Not exactly the kind of story the Gay press wants to portray, but it is the dark side of this supposedly "wonderful" alternative lifestyle.
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jordan111 year ago
Telling someone the truth isn't child abuse>>>>
There is NO truth that homosexuality can be 'cured.' There is NO evidence that homosexuality is a choice. Perpetuating LIES about homosexuality does nothing more than add to the ammunition of prejudice. Targeted at children who are homosexual, & perpetuating a climate of disdain for them is most certainly "child abuse." It is psychological ABUSE.
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smeejay1 year ago
i'd ask if you are out of your mind, mossback, being being well aquainted with your uninformed comments from previous posts i know it merely to be ignorance. how anyone can beleive that an ex-gay would have to go into hiding because of threats from gays is so beyond preposterous it ecapes my very wildest imagination. but wait you are also convinced by FILMS that we have some sort of an organized agenda. like we all get together regularly for strategy meetings. good lord mossy, we're not the body snatchers. every thing that you think of US is ACTUALLY true of YOU. the idea of people gathering and watching films in a place of worship to promote and play on your fears of alienation sickens me. this summer youth groups are at our local mall asking people to stop and pray with them and inviting them to their church. who's the recruiter? them or us? they terrify you to control you. like so many other greedy out of control corporations today. please use that brain that god blesssed you with.
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david_nwpa1 year ago
I have noticed that mossback lives up to his name. He comes to threads like this one, posts inflammatory comments and dredges up people's emotions. I checked how many stories he has posted to date. ZERO. He has not contributed one positive iota at all to Netscape, yet he inflames. Why is that?
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DebraJMSmith1 year ago
jrodan,
You call this child abuse? You want to blame suicides on people helping kids come out of that which could lead them to suicide?
It is the people who try to talk teens into the homosexual lifestyle who are guilty of causing teens to do that which makes some of them take their own lives.
Debra...
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david_nwpa1 year ago
That is completely wrong. No one talks anyone into the homosexual lifestyle, as you put it. Being gay does not cause one to commit suicide. What does the trick are disapproving parents, a crude and contemptuous society, and rude people like you. I suspect you have good intentions, but I am telling you, you are really misguided.
Peace out.
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DebraJMSmith1 year ago
Other than the part you said about me having good intentions, I dissagree with your post.
Debra...
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hamy1 year ago
Now on this I will fight you. I had a friend in high school who committed suicide because his parents forced him to go to psychiatrists and church groups to keep him from being gay. It is the constant shaming of the child that will make them consider suicide. It is being told that death is better than being gay.
My parents tried to do it to me as well. I got out of the situation so that they couldn't try to destroy me.
You and your ilk are the ones destroying these kids. Don't fool yourself.
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scott42611 year ago
I agree wholeheartedly, David. Is the school district going to allow P-FLAG to distribute their materials?
Here's my concern: just as Intelligent Design has no place in a sci
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